A few weeks ago I wrote two posts, one for men and one for women, giving some advice on marriage. After reading the first one (addressed to men) someone left a comment for me, stating that I was in danger of becoming socially, culturally and politically redundant because I had decided to address my articles only to heterosexual relationships. I told my respondent I had a good reason why I did not address homosexual relationships also in my articles – I haven’t had one. While I’ve been in a long term relationship for over twenty years, and I believe I know some things about marriage, and the way women and men operate, when it comes to homosexual relationships, I’m simply not qualified.
I’ve also made no secret lately of the fact I think Christians ought to let up on their lobby against legalising same-sex marriage. I’ve been asked what my Biblical standpoint is, and I’ll be honest, I don’t think I have a very good one. When it comes to the matter of homosexuality, I’ve had the exact same default position programmed into me almost every other Christian has – homosexuality is wrong, thus homosexuals have no rights. A persons homosexuality categorically cancels their right to live without fear of judgement or of being marginalised, and their right to make families from their unions either philosophically or legally. However, I’ve been questioning that default position lately, because it’s begun to clash with a couple of other default positions I’ve challenged and which have changed.
Like the the one I had for years that said I should just say and do what every other Christian said and did, because this is what we do here.
And the default position that said things are exactly the way I perceive them to be, and how I see people is the way they really are, and that’s their problem and not mine.
Oh, and the other default that says I should cite what the Bible says about something, even if I don’t understand either what the Bible says or what that means for others, especially when someone who seems more knowledgeable than me says it’s what I’m meant to do.
And the one that says that having very high ideals is the same as actually pulling them off when it comes to expecting the same high ideals be held and achieved by others, regardless of whether you’ve actually managed to pull off what it is you advocate for.
And the default that says love is grand and wonderful, can be tough and should probably be, but is absolutely conditional, even though we Christians claim at the same time to have the monopoly on the unconditional kind.
*****
I had an illegitimate relationship once, and it produced an illegitimate child. I will never forget reading the word illegitimate on my child’s birth certificate and realising my relationship with his father was something bad I had done to my child, something that would be on his birth record for his whole life, regardless of if I then married his father or not. I wasn’t worried about how hard being married at 20 would be, or how I’d raise a child when I knew nothing about babies or children myself. The stigma was the biggest burden for me. I wanted to be rid of that as soon as possible. Even though our Christianity wasn’t enough to stop us having sex before we were married, it was enough to make us want to get married, a lot. We endeavoured to get us a church-ordained marriage as soon as we could, and despite some hurdles the church placed before us – I think to make us appreciate that is wasn’t going to be as easy to get married as it was to play at it – we did it. But marriage was possible, as well as desirable for us. I will never forget how it felt prior to our wedding when I realised my relationship was not recognised legally, and my child was considered a half-orphan. I felt like my child and me were less than whole persons in our society, and in our Church. And I was nowhere even close to being good.
I would not wish this on anyone, especially someone who was prepared to do whatever it took to change it.
*****
I’m not going to have a homosexual relationship anytime soon, because I’m not homosexual. All the homosexual people I know have told me that their sexual orientation was something they were born with, and isn’t something they choose. I’m pretty sure someone would know whether they have a choice about something like that or not, and every homosexual person I know has also told me they would have never, ever chosen to be homosexual, because the intense crap a person has to go through to be openly so is enough to make you want to top yourself. I cannot imagine what it must be like to be born a certain way and have the world hate you because of it. I am white, and heterosexual, so how could I know? I could tell my homosexual friends that my religion dictates to me that their sexual orientation is a choice they make, but for some reason I just do not feel comfortable with this.
How could I possibly say their homosexuality hasn’t been with with them their whole lives? I’m not homosexual. I’m not qualified.
If I were to walk in to church tomorrow and point a finger a all the people who have messed up their marriages or hurt their kids, I’d be accused of all kinds of hypocrisy. Yet we Christians presume to stand and accuse same-sex couples of all kinds of crimes against morality and society, when they haven’t even received the right to legally marry yet, and most of the children homosexual couples have been able to have together haven’t even reached high school age yet. We don’t have the stats on same-sex divorce, or on how many kids will get messed in the head up by having same-sex parents. Despite this, we Christians think we’re qualified to make the assumption it’s all going to go to shit real soon, so let’s nip it in the bud and stop them ever doing it in the first place. But you know what? I think we have no right to condemn same-sex couples because they might break up, might divorce and might damage their kids in the process. Why wouldn’t they? We Christians certainly have.
To my fellow Christians, I would like to say that despite any “authority” we believe God has given us to speak out on particular matters, when it comes to writing out the rules for perfect marriages and perfect kids, put simply - we’re not qualified.
*If you’d like to read the original post Why Christians Are Not the Boss Of Marriage, click here.
Jo My church’s position on homosexuality is something I wrestle with all the time. I figure unless I start my own religion I won’t agree with everything the church says so I don’t get into arguments about it. But I just can’t agree with condemning people. Doesn’t that go against the idea of grace? I feel like I am in the closet about my views on this. Then again I reckon there are lots of pew sitters who don’t agree with everything that’s preached.
Very reassuring to know other Christians worry about these issues.
I don’t know how many times I think that people who aren’t gay, who don’t have someone they are close to and who they love dearly that is gay, just don’t get it. How could they? No matter how hard they tried. They could never know, but I am so thankful for people like you who leave the door open, who listen, and who make an effort to learn more, perhaps because you too have been judged in a way that has caused hurt.
I went to a local PFLAG meeting this evening — a new thing for the conservative area where I live. It was such a relief and such a wonderful feeling to be able to talk openly and be with people that understand. Sharing stories is so healing. And even though my son is an adult now, gathering to help and support today’s gay kids feels like the right thing to do.
Opening yourself up for criticism is a courageous thing to do, especially amongst the religious community. Thank you.
I am a Christian and am relieved and happy that I have found your blog. I live in the religiously conservative US region known as the bible belt (and often feel like I’ve been belted by Christians with their bibles, so I suppose the name fits!) and your comments let me know that there is indeed a sisterhood of others who share my thoughts on many of these issues.
I have long been appalled at the pious judgement many conservatives hold toward anyone who doesn’t share their own particular brand of christianity. Thank you for ‘calling out’ those who use Christ’s name in an effort to justify their vehement intolerance and condemnation toward homosexuals. ( or toward anyone who doesn’t fit their particular description of correctness ) As the old song says,’They’ll know we are Christians by our love.’
Welcome Kerry, nice to have you as part of the community! To receive more links to items you might find interesting, if you have Facebook, please *like my Facebook page. Jo Hilder Writer. Cheers
Saying that God is not in agreement with something so we cannot agree with it has nothing to do with condemning people. Love and grace does not mean we should agree with what they do and say “go for it’ & thatto do otherwise is to be self-righteous & condemning.
Sure, most people dont choose their emotions & inclinations consciously… from since we were a baby life twists our emotions and desires constantly & no-one should be condemned for that happening to them, but many of these emotional/mental/sexual twists rip off people’s destinies & contribute to greater lack throughout society, families & individuals, no matter what those twists are.
Most people have their identity screwed up in one way or another and learn to feel and act and be inclined certain ways that can rip them & others off, but it doesnt mean we encourage it, esp if God knows certain twists of identity & feelings are particularly going to rip people off. He loves & cares & is going to tell us which thoughts, emotions, & inclinational twists are not healthy but harmful & He wants us to believe Him., Those who love & trust & believe God know He does & says everything out of love & never out of condemnation etc. Those who know that can more easily do the same without throwing out truth in an attempt to appear to be loving.
We are to teach our kids right from wrong without feeling guilty for doing so, or by thinking to do so is to condemn… it depends on how we do it. God teaches us that by doing it with us. Hebrews ch12.
Just cos a lot of christians dont get that yet doesnt mean we throw away what God says, but instead we seek fervently for his heart on the matter. I didnt understand homosexuality either for years and didnt want to condemn & could see many believed they were born that way, and saw it as their very identity, and I know people dont need their identity ripped apart by others, so I sought God himself fervently for many years & He opened my eyes & I didnt have to form an opinion based on what others told me or made sense to me. To do so would be religious and is why Christians become so condemning of those they dont agree with. We can love fervently without agreeing & condoning. I believe this is what we need to learn.
To me, this & every issue comes down to the Cross of Jesus Christ which determines what a Christian is & what righteousness is in God’s eyes…… not ours!
Whether we are born again (Christian) or not, I believe we are being religious instead of following Jesus when we make up our own opinion of what we believe in, instead of going by God’s opinion. So many Christians hate to be called religious because they think that is what other Christians are who go by old traditional man-made concepts, but whether the man-made concepts are old or brand new, they are still religious concepts that have nothing to do with Jesus.
Many Christians have different opinions on different things, but when it comes to the crunch there is one thing that must be the very core of our faith to be a true Christian and that can only be by going to the cross and accepting Jesus’ sacrifice for our sins. The rest of how much we actually follow Christ or become religious even after that is again determined by our understanding of the Cross of Jesus, and how much we keep it as our centre.
Christians could argue all day about lots of other issues, and could judge those who do not have the same opinion on certain matters that they do, (whether those ‘others’ are Christians or not), and there’s not a lot of point to doing that.
My concern is mostly one thing, does a Christian’s opinions take into account the core issue of the cross and all that means, or is their opinion based on what makes sense to their own understanding.
What I love about Jesus is that He equally loves every man, woman and child, no matter what they have done… whether good or bad. He died on the cross for every sin of every man, woman and child and bought for us all the freedom from the penalty of our sin (but we have to receive it to have it, by accepting Jesus as our Saviour). So every sinner who truly acknowledges they are a sinner & need their sins forgiven and accept Jesus sacrifice on their behalf actually become a New Creation and are now legally considered to be a saint in the courts of heaven, who now are considered righteous because Jesus paid for the penalty of our sins.
So every addict, alcoholic, prostitute, thief, murderer, rapist, liar, paedophile, gossip, slanderer, abuser, satanist and socially acceptable person who repents and accepts Jesus’s sacrifice is now forgiven and is now a child of the living God, having been adopted into His family. Though a miracle takes place in their Spirit by them becoming a New Creation and so their behaviour starts to improve, our minds & behaviour & hearts should be being renewed and improved daily from then on, but it doesn’t all happen overnight & continues for the rest of our lives… never becoming perfect on this earth in our behaviour. So if a man who is a drug addict, thief and abuser of his wife & children gets born again (becomes a Christian) and his drug addicted prostitute wife does the same, then they have a lot of mind renewal to go through and I imagine they won’t suddenly appear to be ‘prime’ citizens and great parents by many other people’s standards and will probably make a lot of mistake’s as well as all having to recover from many wounds, poverty, poor health, maybe poor education, diet etc etc. They will have to learn new ways to relate to others and may have to learn how to show affection and to have patience and spend time doing ‘family things’. To many they will still be looked down upon because they speak differently, don’t have good education, social skills, well-paid jjobs, nice clothes, house, car etc etc.
Often in bible times, and today and I believe far more so in the future, these are so often the ones who realise they are sinners who need a saviour, whereas the others who look really good as ‘respectable’ successful citizens on the outside sadly consider themselves to be ‘good’ and in no need of a Saviour. So in God’s eyes, the one who is not necessarily doing things as ‘right’ by the world’s requirements but who has become a child of God are the only one’s considered to be righteous. NOBODY is righteous by their own good works in God’s eyes. NOBODY deserves God’s love or favour or what they want because of their own good works. Yet it seems to me that even in the church amongst born again people that many think that people deserve what they want because they are ‘good’ people by the standards of ‘right & wrong’. This is religion and has nothing to do with the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
God loves homosexuals and loves the children of homosexuals, and wants them and everyone else to become His children, but He is only proud to have young men and women as his kids who have come thru the cross, and never because they can speak well, and have a good education and might behave quite ‘well’. He is proud to have anyone as His child who repents from going their own way and acknowledging they need His salvation, transformation, guidance & teaching, even if they look ugly and a mess to the rest of the world. That is the difference between man’s way of looking at things, and God’s way. It makes no sense to the worldly mind but that is Bible, based on the Cross, which is foolishness to the world, but God says man’s greatest wisdom is foolishness to Him
No adult deserves anything by their good works in God’s eyes. Though some homosexuals will give more time & affection to their children and will be able to teach them more healthy or productive or ‘nicer’ ways to eat and to speak and to work etc, it does not mean they deserve to have what they want when God says NO!
The way many homosexual people have been treated by some Christians and muslims and humanists etc etc is nothing less than disgraceful according to God’s desires for them to be loved and cared for, just like every human being. He loves them so much He gave EVERYTHING for them, but that does not entitle them or anyone else to have what they want because they might do things in a way the world considers acceptable.
The bible warns us to not be wise in our own eyes, not to lean on our own understanding. We Christians might see many things differently to one another, but for me the line must be drawn in the sand at the Cross, for that is the Great dividing line of which we need to be on either one side or the other. Pure uncompromising truth always divides between soul & the Spirit, and if it didn’t, there would be no need for the Cross, and no need for repentance or for obedience to what God say, because we could just base everything whether it fits into our personal understanding. If we don’t understand God’s opinion or it doesn’t seem fair, then we need to decide if its more likely that He is right, or we are, and if we decide He might know things we cant grasp, then we can choose to seek the Lord for His understanding, rather than decide we will tear those pages out of the bible cos what God said doesn’t fit into our limited human brains.
Any God who fits into my understanding is no God at all. If I could understand all He says, then I would be as big and smart and all-knowing as Him, and I honestly don’t understand why people would want to follow and serve and rely on a God no bigger than their own mind, unless they really want to follow & serve their own mind.
We Christians have misrepresented God in many ways, and have been cold-hearted, arrogant, self-seeking and outright obnoxious in many varied ways, and so too has every other human being, but despite our great lack and many sins, we Christians alone are God’s kids, and certainly not because we deserve it. Of course God is working hard on us all to change our thinking and attitudes and hearts and behaviour so that we will be a blessing to each other and to all people, but giving precious people (whether they are Christian or not) what they want, just because they want it and cry and hurt cos they cant have it, does not make it right unless God says it does. As arrogant etc as we have been, we are not going to make up for all the wrong we have done by looking good in others eyes by giving them what they want, in complete disobedience to God. I think if we forget about the Cross, and it becomes about being ‘good’ people who deserve things then to me that is just religion and a mockery of the cross and all Jesus did for us.